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skaladom's avatar

Glad to read your posts again! What I remember from the classical Indian theories of consciousness is that there were mainly two models. (That's without going into things like non-dualism.)

The first is the screen or container model. Consciousness is like a neutral container on which mental and sensory phenomena project themselves. Traditional images for that are like a transparent crystal, a blank screen or an empty vessel.

The second model is that the string of patches of conscious phenomenality *is* what we call consciousness itself, without a separate container-like principle to hold it.

Do I understand right that the approach you are presenting is of the first type? If so, does the second type have a Western equivalent or a name?

It seems to me like the second approach would be a better starting point for physicalist attempt at making sense of consciousness.

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Ashvin's avatar

"But it is the case that, not only other peoples’ consciousnesses, their phenomenalities, their immediate qualitative experience, do not appear to us whatsoever, but also that the contents of their consciousnesses do not appear to us. This is what we outlined above in our thought experiment with the paint swatch: my experience of the quality of greenness doesn’t show up in your consciousness at all, even though you can infer it if you have the right information about my brain state. Inferring a qualitative state is not the same as actually having, experiencing, or being that qualitative state (in a similar way to how having a picture of a million dollars is not the same as having a million dollars). When we consider other people, we can assume that their brain states must generate, or at least correlate to, their own qualitative experience, but we can never actually verify this. And this is because other people’s qualitative experiences are not phenomena for us at all. Those experiences don’t appear in our lifeworld whatsoever. The brain states that are (definitely, if vaguely) linked to those qualitative experiences, certainly do (or at least can) appear in our consciousness. We can indeed measure those states, and can arrive at all kinds of useful information about other persons’ mental states from such measurements."

I believe "we can never actually verify this" is problematic assertion. It smuggles in the assumption that the phenomenal experience of 'seeing green' is limited to some kind of pure sensory experience, but upon closer inspection we find that the experience of 'seeing green' is always interwoven with the *concept* of 'greenness', and it is in fact these concepts which are shared between relative perspectives. For example if I am looking at a green table from one point in space, and you are looking at it from another point in space (obviously, since our physical body cannot share the same point in space), we undoubtedly have unique experiences of the green table from our relative perspectives. Yet we would nevertheless say we are observing the *same* green table. Why? Because we share the same concept of 'green table' that unites the unique perceptual frames of our experience into a coherent whole.

To use another example, let's say I stretch my arm to take the pen on my desk. There's a whole spectrum of conscious phenomena that are correlated in the most complicated, yet consistent ways. Physically, the motion of my arm, the nerve impulses, and the brain activity are all consistent. But these are only part of the spectrum of conscious phenomena. My idea that I need to take the pen for some purpose, which I experience as activating the will, is also fully correlated with all the other perceptions and is no less valid of a conscious experience than the others. In fact, from my perspective, it is the most important one because it is what brings into harmony all the separate frames of perception of my arm movement. It is true that the real-time idea is not a phenomenon like the sensory phenomena, but as soon as it recedes from real-time perspective, it becomes a phenomenon (a "phenomenon" can be considered anything we can potentially think about or remember, including past thoughts and intents).

So if we return to your example, what would allow the other person to experience the 'seeing green' that I experience? Hypothetically, they would need to resonate with my inner life such that they could figure out the preferences, desires, feelings, thoughts, etc. that 'funneled down' the potential palette of colors I could choose from into the particular decision of using the green paint swatch. It is that inner life of intuitive factors, which are shared across many relative perspectives, that renders our experience of 'seeing green' a potentially shared/objective reality, while only our momentary positioning of sensory organs within 'spacetime' renders the experience unique and 'subjective'. Of course, this is not something that any ordinary person would be sufficiently developed to do, but it is still a conceivable possibility. There is no reason to assume that it is impossible to verify the inner experience from the outset.

And upon further investigation, I think we would find that we are *always* resonating with the inner life of other relative perspectives - hence we can empathize, infer, communicate, etc. - but normally that fact is obscured by our myopic/selfish attention and interests, which is what makes us feel like bubbles of consciousness with our own 'private' inner lives of experience.

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